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Germany Scores First: Ends Verizon Contract Over NSA Concerns

Unknown Lamer posted about a month ago | from the localize-spying dept.

Businesses 206

schwit1 (797399) writes with word that, after revelations that Verizon assisted the NSA in its massive surveillance program, Germany is cutting ties with Verizon as their infrastructure provider. From the article: The Interior Ministry says it will let its current contract for Internet services with the New York-based company expire in 2015. The announcement comes after reports this week that Verizon and British company Colt provide Internet services to the German parliament and other official entities. ... Ministry spokesman Tobias Plate said Thursday that Germany wants to ensure it has full control over highly sensitive government communications networks.

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206 comments

Now it's time for New York to nut up! (4, Insightful)

killfixx (148785) | about a month ago | (#47328289)

New York and New Jersey.

Verizon has been fucking them for years...hard!

Never thought I'd feel bad for people from Jersey...

Re:Now it's time for New York to nut up! (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328341)

You god damn bennies can fuck right off.

Re:Now it's time for New York to nut up! (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328353)

so germany is apparently run by jews again. at least they know what to do about that. this time they wont exaggerate the carnage and get a free Israel like a great big pity fuck from the U.N.

wtf forced on beta again? (-1, Offtopic)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328369)

I am currently being redirected to the beta with no way to opt out. What the fuck, Slashdot? Didn't you get the message last time? We. do. not. want. your. shitty. redesign.

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328471)

I am currently being redirected to the beta with no way to opt out. What the fuck, Slashdot? Didn't you get the message last time? We. do. not. want. your. shitty. redesign.

if it hinders people like you that are too fucking stupid to disable it then it can only make this site a better place

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (1)

easyTree (1042254) | about a month ago | (#47328497)

lol. keep up the reasoned, well-balanced discussion ppl. :D

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328521)

You don't understand. It could be impossible for him to disable it. The footer link and the nobeta=1 QS parameter sometimes just don't work at all for me, I guess because Slashdot Beta is just that fucking broken. But other times they do work just fine. It's a crapshoot, really. Even legends like Bjarne Stroustrup or Sir Tim Berners-Lee could get stymied by the same bug, and they'd have no choice but to make similar complaints, too. The real fix is just to totally get rid of the dung heap that's called the Slashdot Beta. That'll fix the problem completely, and properly.

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (2)

sumdumass (711423) | about a month ago | (#47328589)

I wonder how many people are disabling the footer with no script or something? And I would guess that the do not track stuff built into browsers as a work around for websites ignoring the do not track marker might be the problem with the nobeta=1 QS parameter.

Of course those are guesses but if you haven't looked into it, perhaps it might lead you somewhere productive. I disabled cookies altogether a while back and found most all of my web pages loaded differently and on some, I had to log in every time I clicked a link or it forgot I was already logged in. Now I just clear my browser cookies every so often and when opening new sites.

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (2)

DocHoncho (1198543) | about a month ago | (#47329697)

It only ever happens to me on mobile, so no no-script there. What happens is you can see the link to use classic, and then it disappears behind some other div. To top it off, the stupid fucking website is "responsive," so it squishes itself down into a useless wad of mobile-site and fuck you if you'd rather it stayed a normal full page. So far as I know there's no way to disable CSS Media Queries without browser plugins so the design weenies have finally managed to get us good and stuck in their sweaty ass-crack of "modern web design."

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (1)

sumdumass (711423) | about a month ago | (#47329941)

I feel your pain there. I use dolphin which I think is a Safari clone or based on the same engine or something like that. Anyways, I had to set it to pretend to be a desktop browser to get Slashdot to appear correctly. I don't know if it was beta or what, I didn't stick around long enough to pay attention before switching it out. But there are stupid pages where ads don't size properly and crap like that so I guess if I happen to get the same beta issues on mine, I might have to stop browsing slashdot from it. 90% of my time here is from the phone.

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (2)

uniquename72 (1169497) | about a month ago | (#47328745)

You don't understand. It could be impossible for him to disable it.

It's easily disabled. There was a time when only techies read /.; now techies are the exception rather than the rule.

Sad times.

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (3, Informative)

peragrin (659227) | about a month ago | (#47328887)

the low tech solution? login. I only see slashdot classic. the conversation view is better, it is easier to follow long threads. The best part? Slashdot classic allows you to login once and keeps you logged in. Mobile and Beta slashdot log me out of the system after every post, If I can login at all.

One would think Slashdot would have tested user logins without someone like 1password or apple keychain providing login every time.

Even more "low tech" (low as you can go)... apk (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329925)

Dive down into the IP stack itself to FORCE (or rather override) redirection, using hosts -> http://politics.slashdot.org/c... [slashdot.org]

APK

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328485)

The way to evade beta, for now, is to use the URL http://slashdot.org/?nobeta=1 [slashdot.org] before you open any other Slashdot page. It's a cookies thing.

This public service announcement was brought to you by Beta Sucks (tm).

Re:wtf forced on beta again? (2)

buckfeta2014 (3700011) | about a month ago | (#47328801)

Damn straight.

You post ac: Here is how to stop that... apk (0, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329835)

Add these lines to your hosts file, first (& do NOT take a cookie, perhaps disabling javascript too - I don't use them period unless I absolutely HAVE to on most sites, by setting a GLOBAL policy in Opera by default that way, & only creating "exception sites" as needed (db access stuff, see below)).

ALL very easy to do in Opera 12.17 64-bit, as it's the MOST flexible browser under the sun STILL!

Anyhow/anyways:

216.34.181.45 slashdot.org
216.34.181.45 beta.slashdot.org
216.34.181.46 images.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 it.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 developers.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 yro.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 mobile.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 news.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 ask.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 tech.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 apple.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 books.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 games.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 hardware.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 interviews.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 linux.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 science.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 idle.slashdot.org

---

* Note the BOLDED line above? It's key!

It forces you to go to "classic" /. that way by doing that (see the one above, same IP address), overriding the redirect, easy as apple-pie!

(To quote Tony Stark/Iron Man, regarding his Arc Reactor? "It works"...)

APK

P.S.=> You *may* also wish to force the other "normal/classic" sites that way beneath too, e.g.:

216.34.181.48 it.slashdot.org
216.34.181.48 beta.it.slashdot.org

& ANY others you may frequent - I note I don't have to, & always get "classic" pages... works for me, should for you too (however, for the "registered 'lusers'" here, they MAY have to play with their cookies they take, & stall javascript too... I never use it on ANYTHING but ecommerce database access related sites (else they won't work usually, fully))... apk

"Nut up" doesn't mean what you think it means. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328395)

Just a friendly alert, the phrase "nut up" does not mean what I think that you think that it means.

It's slang for punching or otherwise hitting a man so hard in the scrotum that it's as if his testes (that is, his "nuts") permanently end up located over his penis (that is, they were previously "down" relative to the penis, but now they are "up").

The phrase you're thinking of is "balls up". That term means to toughen up when facing an adversary. "Nut up" does sound similar, but it clearly has a very different meaning.

Re:"Nut up" doesn't mean what you think it means. (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about a month ago | (#47328453)

I guess it depends on where you are from, where I hail from nut up and ball(s) up are synonymous.

Re:"Nut up" doesn't mean what you think it means. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328577)

'Balls up' means something totally different here in England. Here it's when a man forces one of his testicles into a fizzy drink bottle and walks around with the bottle hanging off of his genitals. Football and rugby players do it in their dressing rooms before and after games as a show of manliness. I don't really understand how it's manly but somehow it is to them.

I think that the term 'man up' is what the GGP was looking for. It means to act like a man and fight for your rights.

Re:"Nut up" doesn't mean what you think it means. (1)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | about a month ago | (#47328597)

Go ask the IRA about their "nutting squad" . . . or . . . maybe it's a better idea not to . . .

My first thought was, "Whose nut, youse guys?"

Jersey deserves it. (1)

Penguinisto (415985) | about a month ago | (#47328439)

...never forgiven them for blighting us with that abortion they called a "reality show".

As for TFA, I'm kind of surprised that Germany's Interior Ministry hadn't been with Deutsche Telekom/T-Mobile all this time.

Re:Now it's time for New York to nut up! (-1, Troll)

cavreader (1903280) | about a month ago | (#47329659)

Alright a show of hands. Who thinks changing telecom providers will keep the NSA or any other international intelligence service from achieving the same level of access they achieved with Verizon? If the Germans are upset about being spied on they should remember what happened the last time the international community took their eye off the ball when keeping tabs on Germanys government and military.

Are you getting it yet? (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328355)

Nobody wants anything communications-related from the U.S.A. anymore.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328385)

Dude, do a traceroute to slashdot or GTFO.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (5, Interesting)

Mashiki (184564) | about a month ago | (#47328435)

Dude, do a traceroute to slashdot or GTFO.

Well I live in Canada, the only time my ISP(teksavvy) routes to the US now is if I'm requesting a US based address. Not even traffic going to europe or asia is routed through the US.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (2, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329157)

Yea, you should probably traceroute a few more things before making that claim. Teksavvy buys a lot of bandwidth from the US: http://fixedorbit.com/AS/5/AS5645.htm
Many routes to europe or asia will take US carriers unfortunately.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (5, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329159)

Just because none of the routers on the traceroute is in the US, doesn't mean the routing doesn't go THROUGH the US.
http://cablemap.info/

Re:Are you getting it yet? (5, Insightful)

gatkinso (15975) | about a month ago | (#47328433)

What kind of fools would trust their internal government communications to a foreign company in the first place?

Re:Are you getting it yet? (-1, Flamebait)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about a month ago | (#47328495)

That means nobody can buy anything anymore from AMD, Apple, Cisco, Dell, Google, HP, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Oracle, Sun... well the list goes on for a bit like that.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328625)

He's not saying everyone should only get in house communications equipment.
But the government should really consider it.
The Nazis didn't outsource the creation of enigma to the Americans for a good reason.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (4, Funny)

ArcadeMan (2766669) | about a month ago | (#47328689)

The Nazis didn't outsource the creation of enigma to the Americans for a good reason.

Because Americans are bad at math?

Re:Are you getting it yet? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328697)

He's not saying everyone should only get in house communications equipment.
But the government should really consider it.
The Nazis didn't outsource the creation of enigma to the Americans for a good reason.

Naw, but they did source the equipment they used to select people for a trip to the concentration camps from IBM.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329813)

>> Naw, but they did source the equipment they used to select people for a trip to the concentration camps from IBM.

AKA typewriters.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328707)

He's not saying everyone should only get in house communications equipment.
But the government should really consider it.
The Nazis didn't outsource the creation of enigma to the Americans for a good reason.

Even the USA uses communications equipment "Proudly made in the USA" from components "Proudly made in China".

Re:Are you getting it yet? (1)

gatkinso (15975) | about a month ago | (#47329817)

No... it means that the people running the equipment produced by AMD, Apple, Cisco, Dell, Google, HP, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Oracle, Sun are from the same country as you.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328499)

The ones who get money from that company.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (1)

easyTree (1042254) | about a month ago | (#47328515)

One can only assume that they have a similar model of corruption as that used by the US political system when determining large contract suppliers.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (1)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | about a month ago | (#47328687)

I was shocked to read that. I could see some small, poor country just not having the resources to run a decent network and outsourcing it to a big private company. But Germany? Come on.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (2)

Sique (173459) | about a month ago | (#47329101)

The government network contract was up for bidding, and Verizon won. It's as easy as that. And now, the German government found out that Verizon didn't disclose some very important information in the contract negotiations.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (5, Insightful)

PolygamousRanchKid (1290638) | about a month ago | (#47328713)

Germany probably thought that the US were their allies . . .

. . . fools, indeed! The US doesn't have any allies any more; just enemies. Or, at least they treat everyone as enemies.

Hell, even the citizens of the US are treated as enemies by their own government . . .

Re:Are you getting it yet? (0)

goodmanj (234846) | about a month ago | (#47329419)

"US doesn't have any allies any more; just enemies"

That's not true! We have lots of allies. "Ally" means "someone we give $billions of military aid to despite the fact that they hate us and murder their own citizens", right?

Re:Are you getting it yet? (1)

ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) | about a month ago | (#47328717)

Well, if you've already trusted your national defence, university education, ideological belief system, and popular cultural to the homeland of said foreign company, entrusting your national telecoms infrastructure is a relatively small step.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329079)

Umm, any "fools" who believed in the internet, globalization, trade and little things like the WTO.

Sure, you look like a genius now, post-Snowdon. Before that you either believed something different, or you were a paranoid freak, or you were an NSA insider, who never, EVER talked about this stuff in public. Most importantly you weren't the person who was the decision maker to contract with Verizon. Those people are often driven by cost first and everything else, including security, somewhere down the list.

And if you think that contracting to a domestic company, say Deutsche Telecom, well the vast majority of those multinationals have extensive international operations and are merely headquartered somewhere. Yeah they might have started out exclusively German but those days are long over. So "domestic outsourcing" isn't exactly a panacea.

Re: Are you getting it yet? (1)

brunes69 (86786) | about a month ago | (#47329647)

Or you, you know, saw the film Enemy of the State 16 years ago and knew even then it wasn't far off the mark.

Re:Are you getting it yet? (1)

MrVictor (872700) | about a month ago | (#47330053)

Greedy, globalist capitalists?

Is it any different with anybody else? (1, Insightful)

mbkennel (97636) | about a month ago | (#47328503)

There's an illusion that the USA is unique in this. It isn't, it's just that there aren't any other whistleblowers.

If you contract with Deutsche Telecom, you'll be subjected to German intelligence interception certainly.

Realistically---you'll be subjected to German, British, Chinese, French, Russian, American and Israeli intelligence interception to some degree or another.

Re:Is it any different with anybody else? (3, Insightful)

timeOday (582209) | about a month ago | (#47328627)

The USA is unique in the resources it can devote, and therefore the scale at which it can operate. Which is to say, it is unique.

Re:Is it any different with anybody else? (0, Flamebait)

rahvin112 (446269) | about a month ago | (#47329683)

Lol, that's so laughable it's not even funny. I'd be willing to bet there are at least two other countries with more capabilities. The Russians and Chinese. Hell I bet even the Israelis are better because their country is so heavily into hi-tech.

Re: Is it any different with anybody else? (2, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329965)

Are you 13? I think you are 13.

Re:Is it any different with anybody else? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47330033)

"... at least two other countries with more capabilities."

You, sir, are an idiot. Or shill. Or at least laughable and funny.

Re:Is it any different with anybody else? (2)

SuricouRaven (1897204) | about a month ago | (#47328647)

So let them listen. That's what encryption is for.

Re:Is it any different with anybody else? (1)

NatasRevol (731260) | about a month ago | (#47329051)

And if they already have a dozen ways to break encryption?

What then?

Re:Is it any different with anybody else? (1)

ed.han (444783) | about a month ago | (#47329591)

Or, how about not requiring encryption in the first place? All introducing a countermeasure does is flag you as a possible person of interest. Far better to nip it in the bud where possible.

Re: (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328739)

Unless it is porn

Re:Are you getting it yet? (1)

MONSTER_RANCHER (818780) | about a month ago | (#47328795)

Unfortunate backlash, and when it comes down to it V has no say in it at all.

Re: Are you getting it yet? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47330077)

Exactly. And when the rest of the planet cuts all ties to American companies ( thereby impacting their profits ) due to the mistrust the NSA has sown, the gloves will come off and FINALLY something might get done about it

After all, we all know our Congress critters votes typically go to the companies who pad their election campaign the most. The almighty dollar tends to trump everything.

That you have to impact corporate profits to make it happen shows how sad things truly are. :/

Thank God (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328357)

Someone needs to show Verizon that its customers don't like their data NSLd out.

Doesn't really matter (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328377)

The NSA has ways around all the trite attempts to keep your privacy. Nothing will change unless we have a massive change in the powers-that-be.... and even then I only give it about a 5% chance.
 
But hey, it doesn't really matter... The USA got to the World Cup!!!! Woohoo!!!!

Re:Doesn't really matter (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328479)

Well, the rest of the world can't do much. It's pretty much up to you guys in the US to fix it.

So make with the fixing already.

Yes. (1, Insightful)

mojo-raisin (223411) | about a month ago | (#47328407)

Snowden is truly a hero.

This rocks.

Re:Yes. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328513)

I know. I also blame the people who rat out criminals not the criminals themselves.

Re:Yes. (5, Funny)

easyTree (1042254) | about a month ago | (#47328579)

No, he's a traitor to his country's attempts to act dishonorably without widespread knowledge. Shame on him.

Re:Yes. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329195)

To whoever down modded the above comment, Whoooooooooosh! He was being sarcastic.

Biting the hand (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328417)

... after revelations that Verizon assisted the NSA ...

That would be biting the consumer that feeds you. American companies spend much time telling politicians what to think: Why didn't lobbyists make this an issue? I've posted the "nations of tomorrow" monologue (Network, 1976) on SlashDot a few times. But fascism needs traditional government because traditional government has the guns and jails. Which means that corporations which obviously have no fear of jails, can be facing an economic and possibly a literal gun barrel.

How good are Verizon's Lobbyists? (1)

jpschaaf (313847) | about a month ago | (#47328437)

I wonder if Verizon's lobbying budget is big enough to bring about any changes... maybe AT&T will help out on this one to keep the same from happening to them in other countries?

How many of these will it take? (4, Insightful)

kolbe (320366) | about a month ago | (#47328443)

For their corporate lobbyists to actually get some movement on Capital Hill and attempt to undo this.

Re:How many of these will it take? (1)

easyTree (1042254) | about a month ago | (#47328549)

I seriously don't think that's ever going to be on the cards. The question is how many of these does it take before someone allocates enough spin-budget to make this seem as though it's no longer a problem.

"These are not the privacy-invading droids you are looking for..."

For the love of God, don't put most of your point (5, Funny)

easyTree (1042254) | about a month ago | (#47328563)

in the title.

Fat ass (1)

Impy the Impiuos Imp (442658) | about a month ago | (#47329387)

umptions that the other way is better are silly.

For the love of God, don't put most o... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47330151)

Most of what in the title?

Re:How many of these will it take? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329161)

Undo this? How can anyone ever trust anything coming out the US again? This can not be undone. Ever. The US is done.

Re:How many of these will it take? (1)

AHuxley (892839) | about a month ago | (#47329457)

The move to white boxes and to a countries own domestic code mix has begun.
The educational move away from junk US encryption and their tame academics standards has begun.
The gov move away from junk US encryption and their tame standards setting bureaucrats has begun.
The divestment from named US brands has begun - brands that might be connected to vast US pension funds that factored in ongoing vast international sales.
A slight change in the way some US software brands are seen by the consumers is already be whispered about.
What can the US gov or its brands do? The encryption is shared with 5+ other nations, their staff, ex staff, former staff have insights into the complex expensive US products.
Nations are slowly understanding what they have been using for years and what junk telco standards and weak encryption means to their own national interests.
The magic of a soothing word about the wonders of the US private sector, a deep generational respect for fully enforced US legal standards by a US political leader or local US embassy staff just sounds like a sales pitch.
US products have to be considered in any and all bidding - your nation signed a treaty is not a good place to be demanding regional sales from.
Our spies work well together, US brands given them global reach is not a good place to be demanding regional sales from.
Expect to see new calls for domestic investment, jobs for skilled loyal local staff and their firms first and only.
The real question is what any nations own domestic security services will do to in the face of the massive ongoing sale of their nations digital communications to 5+ other nations. Will a next generation of political leaders be so foolish as to give away their nations entire banking sector, trade negotiations, tech jobs, gov funded scientific output, gov databases and private sector data for free to 5+ other nations via tame foreign telcos products?

Verizon to stop buttfucking us in 2015 (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328461)

Do you really think you can put a positive spin on that?

How is Verizon involved? (0)

MobyDisk (75490) | about a month ago | (#47328483)

I'm confused.

At first I thought this was retaliation for the wiretapping of Angela Merkel. But DER SPIEGEL [spiegel.de] says that the wiretap was setup by CIA and NSA employees from the roof of the US embassy, and had nothing to do with Verizon.

So are they saying that because Verizon let the US Government spy on Americans in America, they won't let Verizon operate in Germany? That seems odd to me. Verizon in Germany should be operated by German employees and is subject to German law. What Verizon did in the US seems unrelated.

Personally, I welcome them sanctioning multinational companies for bad behavior. But it is surprising.

Re:How is Verizon involved? (3, Insightful)

sjames (1099) | about a month ago | (#47328663)

If they shared nothing but the name, that would be one thing, but they actually share the same management as far as I know.

A $2 whore is still a $2 whore even if she moves to another country.

Zimmerman telegram? (4, Informative)

mi (197448) | about a month ago | (#47328507)

The announcement comes after reports this week that Verizon and British company Colt provide Internet services to the German parliament and other official entities.

Germany should've learned their lesson, when a telegram sent to their Ambassador in Mexico [wikipedia.org] was intercepted by the British — and shared with the US-government.

Had we not obtained that piece of intelligence, the history of the world could've been quite different...

Re:Zimmerman telegram? (2)

Savage-Rabbit (308260) | about a month ago | (#47329797)

The announcement comes after reports this week that Verizon and British company Colt provide Internet services to the German parliament and other official entities.

Germany should've learned their lesson, when a telegram sent to their Ambassador in Mexico [wikipedia.org] was intercepted by the British — and shared with the US-government.

Had we not obtained that piece of intelligence, the history of the world could've been quite different...

Yeah and if MI6 had grown a spine and called bullshit on the CIA case for WMD's in Iraq maybe that country would not now be on the cusp of becoming an Islamist Caliphate and 179 British soldiers would not have died what is increasingly looking like pointless deaths. At least the Germans had the good sense to see that the CIA 'evidence' for Iraqi WMDs was a steaming pile of horse manure and the strategic foresight to realize that intervention in Iraq would highly probably become the kind of FUBAR it currently is. Could it be that Germany (and France for that matter) learned some lessons from WWI, WWII and the cold war proxy conflicts that Britain might be well advised to take to heart?

Re:Zimmerman telegram? (3, Interesting)

Dasher42 (514179) | about a month ago | (#47330081)

Yeah and if MI6 had grown a spine and called bullshit on the CIA case for WMD's in Iraq maybe that country would not now be on the cusp of becoming an Islamist Caliphate and 179 British soldiers would not have died what is increasingly looking like pointless deaths. At least the Germans had the good sense to see that the CIA 'evidence' for Iraqi WMDs was a steaming pile of horse manure and the strategic foresight to realize that intervention in Iraq would highly probably become the kind of FUBAR it currently is. Could it be that Germany (and France for that matter) learned some lessons from WWI, WWII and the cold war proxy conflicts that Britain might be well advised to take to heart?

Ummm - they did. In the time between Colin Powell's UN address and the State of the Union address by President Bush, I was able to read links on foreign media where MI6 was warning the CIA and the CIA was passing the warning upward. That's "the facts fixed around the policy" for you: only a tiny minority of the USA's population knew as Bush spoke that he was deliberately using hoaxed information as a pretext for an unjustified war.

Similarly, "full" transcripts of Hans Blix's testimony to the UN about the findings of weapons inspectors in Iraq were carried on CNN and the BBC - but the BBC's was the one actually full. The rest of the world got to see the entire thing; most of the US public had omitted from its media all the most convincing evidence that WMDs in Iraq were a fiction, and no cause for war.

Don't let someone cover their ass at Langley or in DC. The falsification of evidence started from the top.

Re:Zimmerman telegram? (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about a month ago | (#47330173)

Not really. German subs had already started unrestricted attacks on US shipping. The Zimmerman telegram was not necessary to get the US into WWI.

Wall Street says not a big deal (2)

ayesnymous (3665205) | about a month ago | (#47328523)

VZ stock hardly changed today.

Re:Wall Street says not a big deal (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329399)

VZ stock hardly changed today.

Maybe they are expecting that Germany would be liberated and instilled with democracy (including VZ run monopoly) by late 2015.

World Cup (5, Funny)

JustinKSU (517405) | about a month ago | (#47328567)

For a second I thought Slashdot was starting to get into sports reporting.

Mineshafts! (1)

Chas (5144) | about a month ago | (#47328623)

Mr. President! We must not allow...a mineshaft gap!

That's basically what this whole "We'll control it all ourselves. Mineminemineminemine!" idiocy is.

De-americanization has officially began (5, Insightful)

boorack (1345877) | about a month ago | (#47328731)

Will be somewhat off-topic but still (somewhat) related.

De-americanization has officially began when Russia signed gas deal with China bypassing dollar. This process started long ago but with this deal it's now official. Things seem to speed up since then. Germany Verizon thing is just another domino piece falling. Regardless of what Americans think of it, I see it as a good thing. Aside from taking (most of the) world of american hegemony, ending of US imperial project can benefit Americans themselves - granted that their (incompetent and incredibly corrupt) government manages to transition from imperial power to ordinary (but better managed) country in orderly way (that is, without inciting WW3).

Message to fellow Americans: you're still one of the most progressive folks in the world (yet NOT the most ones), it's just your fucked up government that sucks, causes mayhem (Ukraine being the last manifestation of this) and blocks your potential. It's time to abandon your imperial/global hegemony policies - you can prosper pretty damn well in a multipolar world (much better than most of the rest). It all depends on you. BUT there are few things to do. You need to bring your fucked-up out-of-control government back in control, forget about american exceptionalism and learn to live in (competitive) multipolar world (ie. do not solve all problem using military or inciting civil wars).

Re:De-americanization has officially began (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328897)

American here, don't care what you think.

Re:De-americanization has officially began (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328961)

Sincerely,

V. Putin

Re:De-americanization has officially began (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328965)

Yes, no more entangling alliances. Europe was a peaceful Utopia and Russia and her neighbors got along perfectly before the US stuck its nose in and messed everything up.

As a bonus we get to cut back our 22% of the UN budget and 25% of NATO budget to a level appropriate for just another country in a multipolar world.

Re:De-americanization has officially began (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329027)

Riddle me this: When "american hegemony" ends, who will step up to the plate?

Russia? Ukraine would ally with Iran to re-obtain nuclear arms if that happened.
China? South East Asia is terrified of them to the point that Japan is trying (successfully) to re-build its military.
The U.N.? The 'international community' considers the U.N. to be nothing more than a U.S. puppet.

No one? Historically, whenever there wasn't a dominant 'superpower', near constant regional conflicts would be waged.

Re:De-americanization has officially began (3, Insightful)

AHuxley (892839) | about a month ago | (#47329487)

The world has already had near constant regional conflicts via Covert United States foreign regime change actions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org]
Most nations may not want to be at some "plate" allowed crumbs by a 'superpower' if they elect a good party or live under a tame dictator.

Re:De-americanization has officially began (1)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about a month ago | (#47330157)

Regional conflicts are a whole lot less nasty than the world wars that were going on before the US became a superpower.

Re:De-americanization has officially began (2)

thrich81 (1357561) | about a month ago | (#47329293)

As much as I would like for the US to withdraw to its borders and let the other democracies defend their own borders in a big, bad world -- the last time we had a multipolar world we got World Wars I and II out of it. A big reason we got WW II is that the US did withdraw to its own borders after WW I and the multipolar world outside proceeded to screw it up on three continents at once.

Re:De-americanization has officially began (-1, Troll)

peragrin (659227) | about a month ago | (#47329321)

You don't want an america that would have gotten involved with the Ukraine. If we had the war would last for years.

Here is the thing no one wants Team America world police. Yet that is exactly what you want. You want an America that does all the dirty hard work for you in keeping peace. You want your entire defense to be backed up by America, yet when America actually does what is nessecary you put dumb limits out there just to make you feel good.

If America stopped defending Europe Europe would fall again with in 30 Years. Every day I see the cracks. Cracks that only get covered because of a desire to look better than America.

The middle East won't be solved until Islam stands up and says enough blood shed. Iraq has been heading this way for decades. If we didn't kill Saddam then upon his death the same thing would have happened. Just 20 years later.

Re:De-americanization has officially began (1)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329563)

You are right in the fact that the idea of some country upholding justice through military power is quite appealing.
The problem is, and what Americans often don't want to admit because it requires some long hard honest introspection, is that the veneer of America being the great good guy is wearing thin outside of the USA.
The crap the NSA is currently doing, for example, has been tried many times before in many other countries. It has never ended well - always by those in power using it as a tool to remain in power. It's a warning sign.
When the world hears about renditions and black sites, drone strikes, they see this bad behavior and recognize it for what it is - after all, many have suffered under regimes that do worse. It makes us worried.
When you consider that people working in the defense industry producing bombs and ordinances can only stay in business by selling more bombs and ordinances, and the only way to create a demand for the new is to use the old, you realize there are people in Washington who profit from war. There are also politicians who benefit from there being a crisis. Would you have let them create the TSA is there wasn't a crisis? There are bad people who benefit from conflicts.
If the United States wants to remain the world's policeman, that can only continue while the reputation of the United States is beyond question. The trust required for this position cannot be gotten by bribes or coercion either. The troublesome part is the cogs inside a political machine that has turned rotten are often the very last people in the world to recognize it. Those cogs know they are good people, working for the right reasons, and assume their mission is just. The results throughout history are often disastrous: concentration camps, gulags, internment camps, political oppression, etc.

So, America, if you want to continue being the world police, then get your act together and stop acting like the tinpot dictators you claim to be against. Otherwise, the rest of the world will have to step up, grow up, and learn to police themselves. And as you have seen, there are growing pains to giving children modern weaponry.

Re:De-americanization has officially began (1, Insightful)

the eric conspiracy (20178) | about a month ago | (#47330141)

> De-americanization has officially began when Russia signed gas deal with China bypassing dollar.

Relatively local trade of that sort has often avoided conversion into a third currency. Nothing new.

The idea that Russia or Chinese currency would make significant inroads against the dollar is preposterous. The ruble is so untrusted that commerce within Russia often is done in dollars as Russia is the largest holder of US banknotes in the world.. China - well let me know when their currency flows are not restricted, and they adopt some sort of internationally accepted accounting standard.

As far as American involvement in other countries, you guys in Europe seemed mighty happy back on this date in 1963 when Kennedy came to Berlin to express his solidarity.

As far as the Ukraine goes that's strictly a EU thing. Russia is getting bent out of shape because the Ukraine wants to start the process of joining the EU. However since the Russia basically keeps Europe from starving with natural gas that is converted into fertilizer, the EU is in no position to say boo to Russia so it's up to the US to try to exert pressure on them. Nothing new, the US has been propping up Europe for the last 60 years.

Personally I'd like to see the US withdraw from Europe (and NATO). It would help us immeasurably from a financial point of view to not pay for the EU's defense any more and in addition I'd get a laugh watching you starve in the dark when Russia shut off your gas and oil.

Better yet ban the company from the whole country (3, Interesting)

mrspoonsi (2955715) | about a month ago | (#47328765)

If it can be shown that the company is working against the countries interests (company treason?), such as in this case, ban them from all sales in that country. That really would get the attention deserved.

Time for everyone to follow suite (0)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47328883)

Its the only thing these bullies in america understand, profits so lets stop feeding the monster the one thing it desires

We the people (3, Informative)

Anonymous Coward | about a month ago | (#47329231)

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

This story has close to none coverage in Germany.

It's been dug up by a blogger (1) and reblogged by netzpolitik.org (2), who then started to ask questions.

There are some articles gathering up by now, but the big media seems to shush things.
The leading tv-stations (ARD & ZDF) that are publicly funded have no real content regarding this story.
This being said: ZDF does list a story in which the government looks as if it has addressed this problem entirely by itself. Some reuters-bot-written junk. (3)

But this was not the case, the government clearly had no intention to reveal it's ties to Verizon. If it wasn't for the blogger, they wouldn't have had to.
Now they're trying to downplay the story and to make the provided services look like a fallback routine or - even better - like an unused source.

The Fed. Ministry of Interior posted yesterday that it had contacted Verizon in 2010,
telling them they would slowly withdraw from the contract, since the Verizon services were being replaced gradually by a new infrastructure for the Government. (4) ...they forgot to tell us when this would happen, but now it seems like they are ready for the big transition m(

After the internet died last summer, this is a bad joke.

Anyhow:
also yesterday the big coalition has managed to finalize their decision regarding a hearing of E. Snowden.
They hold a majority within the exclusivly formed task force regarding the NSA affair.
They have decided mutually that a hearing can not take place on German soil - given the 'fact' that an extradition treaty with the US is in effect. (5)

1: Daniel Luecking http://medienkonsument.de/
2: https://netzpolitik.org/2014/arbeitserleichterung-fuer-die-nsa-deutscher-bundestag-bezieht-internet-von-us-anbieter-verizon/
3: http://www.heute.de/bund-baut-kommunikationsnetz-neu-ohne-us-partner-verizon-33792814.html
4: https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/Kurzmeldungen/DE/2014/06/bund-wechselt-netzbetreiber.html
5: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/nsa-affaere-grosse-koalition-verhindert-befragung-von-snowden-a-977742.html

What about themselves? (1)

manu0601 (2221348) | about a month ago | (#47329837)

Is it the same Germany whose BND secret service collaborated with NSA to spy on internet backbone links?

Better start prepping (1)

Theovon (109752) | about a month ago | (#47329911)

So, first other countries start dropping the dollar as the international reserve currency. Now they’re going to stop buying our products and services. Our economy is going to hell in a handbasket.

economic might more powerful than spying (1)

Dan667 (564390) | about a month ago | (#47330005)

problem with the short sighted spying and lets spend crazy money on the military misses that economic might is certainly more important. You cannot pay for stupid expensive spying and military programs or twist the arms of other countries if you are not economically strong. Not only is the spying program Constitutionally wrong it is weakening the US in real and lasting ways.
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