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Russia Bans US Use of Its Rocket Engines For Military Launches

Soulskill posted about 7 months ago | from the escalating-the-situation-by-not-allowing-escalation dept.

Space 522

schwit1 sends word that Russia will now ban U.S. military satellite launches using Russian-made rockets. According to Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, this is retaliation for U.S. sanctions on high-tech items, put in place because of the dispute in the Ukraine. Rogozin also threatened to block U.S. plans to keep using the International Space Station beyond its 2020 mission end date. That's not all: 'Rogozin also said Russia will suspend the operation of GPS satellite navigation system sites in Russia from June and seek talks with Washington on opening similar sites in the United States for Russia's own system, Glonass. He threatened the permanent closure of the GPS sites in Russia if that is not agreed by September.'

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Duck and cover (5, Funny)

Doug Otto (2821601) | about 7 months ago | (#46991009)

Ok kids, everyone under your desk.

Re:Duck and cover (5, Funny)

Stele (9443) | about 7 months ago | (#46991429)

Shouldn't we lie down, put a paper bag over our head or something?

Re:Duck and cover (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991457)

Yes, yes we should.

Re:Duck and cover (2)

oodaloop (1229816) | about 7 months ago | (#46991593)

If you like.

Re:Duck and cover (0)

retchdog (1319261) | about 7 months ago | (#46991619)

Yes, if you like.

Re:Duck and cover (1)

Tablizer (95088) | about 7 months ago | (#46991439)

"quack quack"

Re:Duck and cover (5, Informative)

TWX (665546) | about 7 months ago | (#46991639)

I used to make fun of duck-and-cover too. Then I looked at what it's actually designed to accomplish.

You don't duck-and-cover to survive being within the atomic fireball, that would be stupid. You duck and cover because you may be close enough to the blast that debris may hit you. Obviously if the roof caves in then you're probably dead, but if the ceiling breaks free from the structural roof or the structural floor above you, having a physical barrier between you and the ceiling grid, or the light fixtures, or the sheetrock panels, or other building infrastructure may well save your life or reduce the injury that you'd sustain. Same logic holds true for blown-in glass from windows, blown-in nonstructural building facades, and anything else thrown by a blast. Look at the videos from that asteroid strike in Russia, where thousands of people were hurt by flying debris. Same principle would have applied. Also holds true for earthquake mitigation, put something solid and relatively unyielding between you and the loose stuff that will rain down on you.

If you try to explain to the average person that there's a difference between ducking-and-covering right at ground-zero for a nuclear blast and five miles out, you're going to get no practical improvement in what people do. Just tell everyone to do it, and those that happen to be far enough to not be incinerated or irradiated might survive.

SpaceX (5, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991025)

This might be one of the best things to happen for SpaceX.

Space programs as a crowbar? (5, Insightful)

AaronLS (1804210) | about 7 months ago | (#46991027)

Wasn't it nice when at least space programs still worked together and were kind of outside the scope of international quarrels. Astronauts working together, at least to me, were a symbol of how we were still all civilized people who had a lot of common interests and could work together peacefully.

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991129)

And then market economic reality kicked in, and it's nuclear WW3 for resources again. D'oh, as it were.

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (3, Interesting)

ShanghaiBill (739463) | about 7 months ago | (#46991253)

And then market economic reality kicked in, and it's nuclear WW3 for resources again.

Market economics are the alternative to fighting for resources. Instead of grabbing what you want by force, you just buy it. The market based world order of the Pax Americana is far more peaceful than the age of imperialism and mercantilism that preceded it.

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991191)

Yeah, but that was when you had sane Presidents in the White House, like Nixon, who actually wanted good relations with the rest of the world.

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (5, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991235)

http://www.spacenews.com/artic... [spacenews.com]

Seems NASA started this over the month ago.

If there is anything to know about Russians, is they do not like getting bullied. And before you say "OMG, Russian are bulling Ukraine!", this is not the first time east Ukraine and majority were told to take a hike by the so-called "westerners".

Quick note: East Ukraine was Russia. West Ukraine was Poland. Borders were redrawn and now you have populations with different leanings. Imagine that!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H... [wikipedia.org]

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991405)

75 years ago it was Ukraine. Last year it was Ukraine. Today its a seaport, a oil pipeline, and free stuff for the taking after failed political corruption didn't work.

Those pesky people, they want more honest government. That is crazy talk.

Well since we can no longer syphon off the money lets just do wholesale theft.

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991521)

Both were the Mongol Empire, and before that the Kievan Rus. Your point?

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (3, Insightful)

losfromla (1294594) | about 7 months ago | (#46991561)

Uh, like other countries like to get bullied?
98 lb guy doesn't like getting bullied? Tough shit, schedule him for a 2:45 wedgie.
275 lb football player doesn't like getting bullied? ok, fine, take him off the schedule.
Same with countries, that's why they all want the nukes, it's the nukes that make all the difference.

what utter fucking bullshit (0, Flamebait)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991603)

what utter, fucking, historically ignorant bullshit.

if your theory were in any way true, it would not have required the forced de-ukrainization of eastern ukraine in the 1930s, which stalin did.

your simplistic rewriting of history for the now twice invader of ukraine, is deplorable.

fuck you you fucking fascist.

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (5, Informative)

Wookact (2804191) | about 7 months ago | (#46991633)

Your quick note left out quite a bit of information that is relevant. Mainly that the russian speaking ukranians were imported to Ukraine, and the originally ethnic groups were cleared out.

Sure the majority of the people in eastern Ukraine might want to belong to Russia, but those people have only lived there since the 40s through the 70s for the most part. In which case I propose they just move back to Russia, and leave Ukraine to the ethnic groups that were cleared out.

See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R... [wikipedia.org]

See Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R... [wikipedia.org]

In fact the Russians that moved in were hell bent on stamping out Ukranian cultrue.

The first wave of purges between 1929 and 1934 targeted the revolutionary generation of the party that in Ukraine included many supporters of Ukrainization. Soviet authorities specifically targeted the commissar of education in Ukraine, Mykola Skrypnyk, for promoting Ukrainian language reforms that were seen as dangerous and counterrevolutionary; Skrypnyk committed suicide in 1933. The next 1936–1938 wave of political purges eliminated much of the new political generation that replaced those who perished in the first wave. Being accused of using the "Skrypnyk alphabet" – in other words, using Ukrainian Cyrillic letters instead of Russian ones – could lead to arrest or death

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (1)

jellomizer (103300) | about 7 months ago | (#46991257)

Well the Snowden leaks messed up American Credibility.
For the most part he leaked stuff that everyone knew that we were doing it anyways. But because of the leak it gave government politicians something tangible to grab on and scold the US for, and pressure public opinion away from the US.

Russia is doing this too, with its citizens having proof of American bad guys, they can play to the paranoia that was already there, and use this to push their own objective. As America doesn't have a moral stance of their argument.

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (1)

i kan reed (749298) | about 7 months ago | (#46991399)

Except this latest spat is specifically about Crimea.

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (3, Interesting)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991285)

You do realize the space program(s) started out as competitors, right? The whole thing started as a result of this little "international quarrel" called the Cold War.

Re:Space programs as a crowbar? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991541)

Wasn't it nice when at least space programs still worked together and were kind of outside the scope of international quarrels. Astronauts working together, at least to me, were a symbol of how we were still all civilized people who had a lot of common interests and could work together peacefully.

What planet do you live on? That has *never* been true on this planet, at least not for the past 2000 years or more.

suspend GPS? (1, Funny)

mojo-raisin (223411) | about 7 months ago | (#46991035)

How does one suspend GPS? Russia doesn't control outer space above their country.

ps - Elon Musk must be chuckling.

Re:suspend GPS? (5, Informative)

bigpat (158134) | about 7 months ago | (#46991063)

I believe they are talking about ground stations that are physically located in Russia. My understanding is that since they are fixed points on the earth that they can be used to calibrate the GPS signals/clocks to be more accurate when they are passing over that area of the world.

Re:suspend GPS? (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 7 months ago | (#46991103)

Then Russia would just be hurting itself as the satellites around the rest of world will continue to function.

Re:suspend GPS? (4, Interesting)

AmiMoJo (196126) | about 7 months ago | (#46991271)

Russia has its own system called Glonass. Most modern navigation devices support it because all the GPS modules implemented it when Russia decided to impose massive import duty on GPS only devices. They probably wouldn't be hurt by GPS because Glonass is adequate for civilian use and the military would never trust GPS to begin with.

It won't just affect Russia either, it will affect nearby countries. If the GPS system can't be maintained with new satellites it will eventually degrade and fail, but presumably the US has a backup plan to keep it going with different launch vehicles. I imagine there will be some considerable cost involved though.

Re:suspend GPS? (2)

TubeSteak (669689) | about 7 months ago | (#46991281)

Then Russia would just be hurting itself as the satellites around the rest of world will continue to function.

IIRC, Russia has a law requiring all domestically produced/sold GPS devices to support GLONASS.
Turning off the GPS ground stations wouldn't anything to limit Russian's use of GPS/GLONASS devices.
Worst case scenario, it could limit precision for devices that actively use both satellites to derive the location.

Re:suspend GPS? (1)

mythosaz (572040) | about 7 months ago | (#46991571)

And every Russian with a phone made by anyone other than a Russian phone-maker would be SOL.

Re:suspend GPS? (0, Flamebait)

jklovanc (1603149) | about 7 months ago | (#46991123)

So suspending the GPS sites in Russia will make GPS less accurate in Russia. It will still be accurate enough to place a bomb so what does the US care?

Re:suspend GPS? (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991269)

Probably not a constructive comment.

Re:suspend GPS? (2)

guacamole (24270) | about 7 months ago | (#46991323)

I think the intent is to get more Russians to use Russia's GPS equivalent.

Re:suspend GPS? (1)

guacamole (24270) | about 7 months ago | (#46991083)

It's not about suspending GPS. It's about land based sites. Some kind of signal boosters I suppose.

Re:suspend GPS? (4, Informative)

dmgxmichael (1219692) | about 7 months ago | (#46991299)

GPS is normally only accurate to within a few yards, and when the system was opened up to civilian use in the late 90's the military put in a discrepancy to the civilian signals so that they'd be off by a few dozen yards.

Then someone hit upon the idea of checking GPS against a known good reading.

GPS base stations do this. They know where they are, exactly. They listen to the GPS satellites report of where the satellites think they are, then broadcast the margin of error out to nearby GPS receivers. As a result, the accuracy of the readings can be gotten exact down to a few feet.

So successful was this that the military eventually discarded the idea of putting in an intentional margin of error for civilian signals.

Re:suspend GPS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991143)

There are ground stations used to orient the GPS satellites. Some of them are in Russia.

Re:suspend GPS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991155)

Easy. GPS (or any other GNSS) needs ground stations all over the world to keep the system `calibrated'. Loss of a few of these ground stations will diminish its precision, although will not completely destroy its functionality.

It does not look like a well though out response, though, since Russian space industry needs money.

Re:suspend GPS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991169)

I think they are talking about WAAS and or perhaps even jamming GPS (of course this would only be possible in limited areas), but they could also distord the WAAS signals, so anyone with WAAS enabled would be effected (they could disable WAAS then, but not everyone with GPS even knows what it is).

Re:suspend GPS? (2)

ChadL (880878) | about 7 months ago | (#46991215)

They are talking about the GPS ground stations [gps.gov] that monitors the GPS signals (and is programed with its exact position and altitude) and determine what corrections, if any, need to be made to the GPS signals (so that what it knows to be its correct position is the same as what its GPS receiver is telling it)
Russia wants similar ground stations set up in the US for their GLONASS system, which I think is fair (and good for users of navigation systems, if not for the US military which would like to be able to turn off Russia's navigation systems).

Re:suspend GPS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991575)

How sure are you that russia doesn't control outer space above its country? I could easily see them removing the gps satellites physically if they found them annoying.

Well, that sucks. (1)

B33rNinj4 (666756) | about 7 months ago | (#46991049)

I was hoping that despite our political issues, Russia would still partner with us in exploration/science endeavors. I guess I was a little too optimistic.

Re:Well, that sucks. (4, Funny)

CheshireDragon (1183095) | about 7 months ago | (#46991089)

you should know by now that mother Russia has multiple personality disorder.

Re:Well, that sucks. (0)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 7 months ago | (#46991167)

I do not understand why Russia is so surprised by the condemnation?

It is not like the real eastern Ukrainians actually favor Russia or Independence? [washingtonpost.com] All the pro Russian protesters are really Russian pretending to be Ukrainians taking over TV stations and trying to whip up the Russian minority. They know this and everything is fake and is doctored by the media including hte western media when they call the special forces protesters??

Unless they actually believe the crap they see on state sponsored TV and really think they are the good guys stopping an evil Nazi regime sponsored the US and A to bully innocent Ukrainians and Russia? At least the demonstrators in Kiev who over threw the government were real Ukrainians and not American CIA agents. Idiots.

So Russia is angry it is being perceived as bully as result. Well the mirror doesn't lie and Russia deservers all its sanctions.

Re:Well, that sucks. (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991291)

I do not understand why the USA is so surprised by the condemnation?

It is not like the real eastern Ukrainians actually favor Russia or Independence. All the 'pro Russian separatist' labeling is really Russian-Ukrainians being spun into to be 'Russian forces' taking over TV stations and trying to whip up the so-called 'Russian' minority. They know this and everything is fake and is doctored by the media including hte western media when they call the protesters special forces!

Unless they actually believe the crap they see on corporate sponsored TV and really think they are the good guys stopping an evil Nazi regime sponsored by Putin to bully innocent Ukrainians and EU? At least the demonstrators in Kiev who over threw the government were real American CIA agents and not Ukrainians. Idiots.

So USA is angry it is being perceived as bully as result. Well the mirror doesn't lie and USA deservers all its sanctions.

Re:Well, that sucks. (1, Insightful)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991349)

you know nothing, try reading something other than your state controlled news, or better come and visit.

Re:Well, that sucks. (0)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 7 months ago | (#46991373)

I do not understand why the USA is so surprised by the condemnation?

It is not like the real eastern Ukrainians actually favor Russia or Independence. All the 'pro Russian separatist' labeling is really Russian-Ukrainians being spun into to be 'Russian forces' taking over TV stations and trying to whip up the so-called 'Russian' minority. They know this and everything is fake and is doctored by the media including hte western media when they call the protesters special forces!

Unless they actually believe the crap they see on corporate sponsored TV and really think they are the good guys stopping an evil Nazi regime sponsored by Putin to bully innocent Ukrainians and EU? At least the demonstrators in Kiev who over threw the government were real American CIA agents and not Ukrainians. Idiots.

So USA is angry it is being perceived as bully as result. Well the mirror doesn't lie and USA deservers all its sanctions.

The difference is we did not send in marines dressed as Ukrainian protesters to overthrow the government in Kiev or try to carve a sovereign nation because they might vote for something we do not like.

Russia is clearly the bully here and I do not see how anyone can even look at the other side objectively.

Re:Well, that sucks. (0)

some old guy (674482) | about 7 months ago | (#46991527)

Correct. In such cases, the US sends in SEALS and the CIA, not Marines.

Re:Well, that sucks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991547)

Have proof that the Kiev government was installed by the USA?

Re:Well, that sucks. (1, Insightful)

Em Adespoton (792954) | about 7 months ago | (#46991565)

I do not see how anyone can even look at the other side objectively.

I guess you don't see how anyone can look at either view objectively then....

Objective is different from "agree with". But you're right; it's all subjective.

Personally, it looks to me as if
a) Russia is fed up with being pressured by the US to use the "Made in America" solutions when Russia has its own and
b) the situation in the Ukraine is extremely complex and the only people with everything to lose are those who actually live there.

The US has successfully aided an overthrow of the previous government that was backed by Russia, and Russia is seeing that their seaport might be taken away, as well as their influence in that area, which is right on their border (think US and Mexico, or US and Canada). Both the US and Russia have dirty hands, and yes, there are Russian and US sympathizers living in Ukraine, with the Russian ones predominantly in the west, and the US ones predominantly in the east. Most of the citizens just want to get on with life. There are also US operatives working with the current government, and Russian operatives working inside west Ukraine to try and set up another government.

The Russians are getting heavily into the newspeak to try and get internal and external support, and guess what? So is the US. I have yet to see one objective news article about the whole thing, as everyone seems to have turned it into a bipartisan-style issue (even outside Russia and the US).

One thing I'm certain of: the Ukraine doesn't want to go back to being part Russia (west) and part Poland (east), even if there are some who might make some noise about who they'd prefer as their allies.

Re:Well, that sucks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991621)

The poll shows something different [washingtonpost.com] .

56% want to be part of the EU and this east and west. Most though want to be part of an independent country and even in the east do want to be part of Russia nor be threatened any time Russia does not like what the country does. The seaport is err was in Ukraine Russia has no say what someone does with their own country.

Re:Well, that sucks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991611)

As a troll, you're not doing very well. No-one could really believe what you post here.

Try something more believable next time, like claiming that the so-called 'Ukraine' is actually just a sound stage in Area 51.

Re:Well, that sucks. (1)

mr_mischief (456295) | about 7 months ago | (#46991371)

I think saying that all the protestors are Russians is probably an exaggeration. I would imagine that some Russians are rallying a larger group of Ukrainians. Namely, it would be those who were happy with Yanukovych and his plan of being independent but closer to Russia than to NATO and the EU. I imagine most of the Ukrainians even in the supposedly breakaway areas prefer to remain Ukrainian, though. Maybe they'd like to have a little more local influence, but independence is not necessary for that. Joining another, larger nation is counter to it.

Re:Well, that sucks. (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 7 months ago | (#46991413)

Perhaps. But even in eastern Ukraine that poll showed only 18% wanted to join Russia. I would say it is like the Tea party in the US. A vocal group for sure but do not represent the majority in anyway.

Ukraine suffered greatly under the Soviet Union and welcomed the Nazi's as liberators since 4 million starved to death in WW II. Which is why Putin is calling them neo nazi's. The question not brought up is why? It is because of the past and as a result even if they are ethnically Slavic and an ancestor of modern Russians they do not want anything to do with them.

Re:Well, that sucks. (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991383)

Right, because that poll simply cannot be wrong. Also, what about the protesters being Russian? They do live there, do they not? How come every medial outlet calls these guys `pro-Russian separatists' while the Maidan neo-nazis are called simply `protesters'? I do not think the facts are as straight as you might believe and Russia does have plenty of reasons to be upset (the NATO expansion in Eastern Europe is a very legitimate reason to be outraged).

Re:Well, that sucks. (1)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 7 months ago | (#46991445)

Right, because that poll simply cannot be wrong. Also, what about the protesters being Russian? They do live there, do they not? How come every medial outlet calls these guys `pro-Russian separatists' while the Maidan neo-nazis are called simply `protesters'? I do not think the facts are as straight as you might believe and Russia does have plenty of reasons to be upset (the NATO expansion in Eastern Europe is a very legitimate reason to be outraged).

They are actually special forces [theguardian.com] from Russia and not Ukrainian.

Re:Well, that sucks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991273)

So does every other nation on the face of the planet.
 
Not to talk anyone down but you're acting like the US has been forthcoming and respectful of other nations in any of our lifetimes. The question here is which son of a bitch do you feel is least likely to disrupt your day to day lifestyle.

Re:Well, that sucks. (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991207)

I was hoping that despite our political issues, Russia would still partner with us in exploration/science endeavors. I guess I was a little too optimistic.

Well, they were hoping that despite our political issues, the US would still sell high-tech items to them.
I guess they were a little too optimistic.

Re:Well, that sucks. (1)

mar.kolya (2448710) | about 7 months ago | (#46991275)

Well, it's kind of hard to 'partner' with a country that doesn't know the meaning of word 'equal'.

US manages to show double standards in everything it does, so this seems like a reasonable response.

Well, opportunity missed. (1)

stewsters (1406737) | about 7 months ago | (#46991065)

And I should have bought SpaceX stock last week.

Re:Well, opportunity missed. (1)

demontechie (180612) | about 7 months ago | (#46991115)

Don't you wish you could... [forbes.com]

Re:Well, opportunity missed. (2)

MozeeToby (1163751) | about 7 months ago | (#46991223)

One of the primary reasons given is that space exploration (in particular the highly speculative Mars mission SpaceX continues to look into) are high risk long term ventures and they don't want to be beholden to investors to meet quarterly numbers. To which I say put it in the company bylaws, mission statement, and investment prospectus and let the investors decide. I would love the chance to invest in a high risk, high reward, long term thinking company. There are so incredibly few of them out there, it would be a refreshing change of pace to force investors to look 10 years a head instead of 10 weeks.

The best way to stop bullying (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991069)

is to stand up to the bully.

Dogs are barking, cars are going anyways (0)

osiaq (2495684) | about 7 months ago | (#46991079)

And average Russki again gets kick in the butt. Good, they are so proud of their Tzar Putin, so go ahead, eat the shit made by him again

Re:Dogs are barking, cars are going anyways (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991131)

The man looks good with his shirt off, that's for sure.

Re:Dogs are barking, cars are going anyways (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991531)

Did you miss those decades where we all had nukes pointing at one another?

Did you miss all those years where tensions kept ratcheting up and there was a fear people shoot the damned things?

This kind of stuff has far broader implications than you seem to realize.

Club and balls (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991097)

We dont need fighting. Lets take this "club and balls" contest to the American and Russian Women! Let them decide which set of leadership tackle should rule the day.

I'm thinking the Americans will lead.. Our guys drink less Vodka and we got those BGH drugs in all our food. Russian nights are a lot colder, they might be better at fishing with their tackle.

Re:Club and balls (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991557)

Maybe not

Russian politicians [blogspot.com]

US [wordpress.com] politicians [theiowarepublican.com]

ISS? (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991107)

Keeping the US-Russia diplomatic ties strong was a founding reason for the joint civilian space missions, amongst its many scientific missions. What, if anything is insulating the ISS from becoming a $100 billion dollar political football?

Not only that... (4, Funny)

ilsaloving (1534307) | about 7 months ago | (#46991117)

All HTTP connections to US websites will be redirected to a youtube video of Putin striking manly poses while riding on top of a grizzly bear.

Re:Not only that... (1)

lbmouse (473316) | about 7 months ago | (#46991193)

I assume you mean this type of bear [youtube.com] .

Re:Not only that... (1)

Virtucon (127420) | about 7 months ago | (#46991263)

That reminds me somehow of the bear fucker scene from "Super Troopers" [youtube.com]

mod 3o3n (-1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991145)

Conspiracy theory (1)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991151)

Am I the only one who, upon hearing such things, immediately considers the possibility that these two governments are cooperating to manufacture a "threat" which will justify the next expansion of government (in terms of both power and revenue)? Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I'd certainly leave open the possibility.

& Weak-kneed leaders in the West will ... (1)

BoRegardless (721219) | about 7 months ago | (#46991175)

Do a quick bunch of mealy mouthed video bites proclaiming solidarity and further cooperation to, well, study the situation.

I have no faith in our leaders here in the US or in the EU to stop Putin.

Re:& Weak-kneed leaders in the West will ... (2)

pla (258480) | about 7 months ago | (#46991361)

I have no faith in our leaders here in the US or in the EU to stop Putin.

Stop him from doing what, exactly?

So far, we have a bunch of former Soviet satellites holding referendums on independence. Pooty hasn't actually "done" anything yet.

This makes the US and EU situation particularly laughable - Whether or not Crimea really wants to join Russia or not, we have imposed sanctions against private individuals because unrelated third parties held protest-votes that make the UN look bad. And the closest we can come to even calling those votes/referendums illegal, they violate the will of a group of thugs who overthrew the legitimate, democratically elected Ukraine government a few months ago.

We need to stay the fuck out of this debacle before we start WW3 over literally nothing.

Re:& Weak-kneed leaders in the West will ... (1)

CRCulver (715279) | about 7 months ago | (#46991455)

And the closest we can come to even calling those votes/referendums illegal, they violate the will of a group of thugs who overthrew the legitimate, democratically elected Ukraine government a few months ago.

Ukraine's "democratically elected" government was hardly overthrown: the composition of the Rada remains the same as it was before the trouble started. Svoboda, for example, was already in parliament under Yanukovych. All that changed was that Yanukovych fled, and then most of the the members of his Party of Regions in parliament said that they no longer wanted to further his platform. An acting president was voted in, in a parliamentary vote that met the quorum, and it is extremely obvious that he doesn't particularly want to be there.

Whether or not Crimea really wants to join Russia or not, we have imposed sanctions against private individuals because unrelated third parties held protest-votes that make the UN look bad.

Strange that you think that, since most commentary on the sanctions is that they have been overly cautious, applied only to a handful of officials who were patently involved in the separatist campaign, and they leave out many people close to Putin who Western intelligence sources hint are covertly involved.

Pooty hasn't actually "done" anything yet.

Putin has in fact already admitted that he covertly moved thousands extra troops into Crimea to ensure control well before the referendum: the "green men" were not simply Russian forces already stationed in the peninsula under treaty. Sure, he could have done much, much more in the region, but he's hardly impassive.

It's a complex situation and it's hard to tell which side is subjectively "right", but could I ask you to read a larger amount of news and commentary on this in both Russian and English?

Re:& Weak-kneed leaders in the West will ... (1)

horza (87255) | about 7 months ago | (#46991467)

The US needs to stop Putin, and the space front rather than Ukraine is the perfect place to start. The EU is hopelessly hooked on Russian gas and scared silly of Putin, so don't expect any help there. The first space race took us (using 'us' in the human race sense) to the moon, and very little since. Maybe the next one will take us to Mars?

As an aside, 'our leaders' needs to include the people. Shifting off Russian oil and gas will be painful financially, and economies that are only just getting back on their feet financially are going to be hesitant to deal a blow to the economy already suffering from unemployment and austerity measures. They do need to get a spine, but they need to sell why to the people.

Phillip.

This should be a wake up call... (4, Insightful)

ArcadeNut (85398) | about 7 months ago | (#46991181)

We need to bring back the NASA programs and other things that are vital to national security in house rather then outsourcing to the lowest bidders...

"Looks like I picked the wrong day.... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991199)

to stop sniffing rocket fuel. We're back in business baby!!!" -NASA

Comparative advantage is BS (5, Insightful)

areusche (1297613) | about 7 months ago | (#46991231)

This is exactly why comparative advantage is complete BS. When you let another foreign entity control your means of whatever it may be (rocketd, iPhones, car parts, tools, etc etc) you lose that ability to utilize it when the political poo hits the fan.

Watch the space shuttle program make a dramatic re-appearance. This is a massive national security issue that I bet no one brought up when they decided, "Gee, lets go and outsource our rockets and launches to a foreign power we've had cold relations with since the early 20th century."

This is what happens when people look solely at the bottom line. It gets a little hard to project your power into a region when that same region makes most of your equipment (I'm looking at you China!).

Re:Comparative advantage is BS (4, Insightful)

jader3rd (2222716) | about 7 months ago | (#46991321)

This is exactly why comparative advantage is complete BS. When you let another foreign entity control your means of whatever it may be (rocketd, iPhones, car parts, tools, etc etc) you lose that ability to utilize it when the political poo hits the fan.

I disagree. It's quite possible that this decision wasn't made lightly. I'm sure there are some Russian businesses which are being hurt by this. When countries trade with each other, and become dependent upon each other, there's a higher motivation not to go to war with each other or let political poo hit fans. While trade dependency is a strategy that kind of hurts when war breaks out, it decreases the likelihood of that war actually breaking out.

I think that policies should be optimized for day to day living during peacetime, not war.

Re:Comparative advantage is BS (1)

areusche (1297613) | about 7 months ago | (#46991385)

Good point, I should have included that the US needs to stop antagonizing Russia and China. If our leaders want to play global bully then they need to understand that there's two sides of this coin. You can't project hegemonic power without a solid base to stand on. Putin said it best, "Everything in the world is interdependent and once you try to punish someone, in the end you will cut off your nose to spite your face.

Re:Comparative advantage is BS (1)

Delwin (599872) | about 7 months ago | (#46991431)

Not the shuttle but the SLS. It's already being tested. Also SpaceX will likely get its human rating a lot faster than it would have otherwise.

Re:Comparative advantage is BS (1)

Ralph Wiggam (22354) | about 7 months ago | (#46991333)

The Shuttle program was ended because the shuttles were no longer safe to fly. They are not coming back.

Re:Comparative advantage is BS (1)

neilo_1701D (2765337) | about 7 months ago | (#46991623)

Why space shuttles?

They were a magnificent achievement for the '70s, but they were never a cost-effective means of delivering payloads into orbit.

Where will this end? (4, Insightful)

guacamole (24270) | about 7 months ago | (#46991277)

The sanctions and bans clearly will not work to defuse the Ukraine crisis. The Russian public has bought into Putin's nationalist rhetoric. Putin completely controls the political discourse in the mass media within Russia. This year, Kremlin increased pressure even on web based news, social networks, and blogs. Every Western sanction is met with a counter-sanction from the Russian side. The Russian economy and standards of living may suffer (some have serious doubts about the effectiveness of these sanctions), but I don't think they will make Russia back away.

Moreover, it's not clear what is the goal of the western sanctions as their goal is often amorphously described as "deescalate the situation in Ukraine". What does this mean? Russians think that annexation of Crimea is a done deal. Not just Putin, average Russians too. They certainly won't back away from that. As for the instability in east Ukraine, it's not clear how you prove who is escalating what right now? The locals in East Ukraine are certainly as pissed off at Kiev as it gets, specially after deadly Odesa clashes and the coup in Kiev. I don't think they need a lot of encouragement from Putin at this point.

The best way to defuse the crisis in Ukraine, is to help this country rebuild its democratic institutions and economy. While Ukraine is viewed as the victim in this dispute, its government must do more to accommodate the concerns of its Russian-speaking citizens in the East regions. For one, they should be allowed to elect their local government officials.

Re:Where will this end? (0)

Billly Gates (198444) | about 7 months ago | (#46991485)

Rebuild it and Putin will then say LOOK! THE CIA REALLY SUPPORTS THE NEO NAZIS OUT TO GET RUSSIANS.

Support can be twisted to mean lots of things.

There is only one way to fix this and it will be war. I can predict the news. Within days the eastern regions will petition Putin to join Russia. Russia will send in forces to secure its terrority (in Russia's mind Ukraine is no part of Russia) and Ukraine will fight them. War will break out.

Just like the civil war Lincoln stated a house divided agaisn't itself can not stand. Same with Ukraine. It is time for a showdown or a shut up and those who do not like Russia according to recent polls in the east [washingtonpost.com] will surely put up a fight once it invades.

 

Exports for a struggling economy (1)

Atmchicago (555403) | about 7 months ago | (#46991327)

This might really hurt Russia. The Soviet Union struggled to stay apace with technology, and Russia has too since the collapse of the USSR. Space technology was one area where Russia could make money and truly claim to be among the best. If they're not careful this might kill off one of their few chances for profitable exports in the world economy.

Re:Exports for a struggling economy (1)

guacamole (24270) | about 7 months ago | (#46991389)

I suspect the ban on using Russian engines to launch the US military satellites is more of a posturing. Russian rockets and rocket engines are used mostly to launch civilian satellites.

Re:Exports for a struggling economy (1)

EmperorArthur (1113223) | about 7 months ago | (#46991499)

I suspect the ban on using Russian engines to launch the US military satellites is more of a posturing. Russian rockets and rocket engines are used mostly to launch civilian satellites.

Except the number one thing in the news lately about those engines has been the massive US military block buy of rockets that use them. When the judge ordered a preliminary injunction to keep ULA from buying them a bunch of US businessmen, bureaucrats, politicians, and military types freaked out. Which was practically a sign to the Russians saying, "You can hurt us."

The GPS thing is partly posturing, but mostly about limiting military accuracy in the off chance we try something stupid. It's not likely, but still an important military concern, and it goes perfectly with everything else that's going on.

The space station thing is probably all posturing, especially since the US is expected to start testing manned launches again by next year. What I can see them doing is raising prices to an outrageous degree. Get every cent they can to build their new launch complex. After all, Russia currently rents the Baikonur Cosmodrome from Kazakhstan.

Re:Exports for a struggling economy (2)

Delwin (599872) | about 7 months ago | (#46991529)

The RD-180 is used by ULA for all their heavy lift rockets.

ULA has a stockpile of them that will last at least a few years but until the SLS with the F1-B or the Falcon Heavy with the Merlin fly the RD-180 is the only heavy lift engine we have.

The closest second is the Falcon 9 which is already using Merlin engines but it is running about 40% of the lift capiability of the largest ULA rockets. If the Falcon Heavy is ever launched then SpaceX will have a launch vehicle that can finally put the RD-180 to rest. Likewise when the SLS launches it could replace the heavy lift rockets from ULA but it's not being designed for LEO operations.

Re:Exports for a struggling economy (1)

biodata (1981610) | about 7 months ago | (#46991461)

I think they will probably struggle on with the gas revenues they earn for keeping the lights on in Europe.

Time for SpaceX... (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991335)

...to really kick it in to high gear.

We've been budget cut to death (3, Insightful)

Catbeller (118204) | about 7 months ago | (#46991359)

Kill shuttles, kill the DC-X, kill spaceplanes, kill research, find the cheapest possible source of launchers. Make a business out of manned spaceflight. So now we're hostage to Russia, because they were cheaper than building a reusable launch system. SpaceX ain't ready yet. So, we're screwed. May Elon Musk get what he wishes for, and may he be able to deliver. Next month.

saw this coming (1)

slashmydots (2189826) | about 7 months ago | (#46991391)

Gee, maybe we should have kept our space program going. Then instead of placing it in the hands of moronic dictatorships like Russia (true if you live in reality) or private industries trying to make a profit, they would be the one collecting money for licensing, part sales, and commercial launches. It was one of the few things at NASA that made money!

Re:saw this coming (1)

EngineeringStudent (3003337) | about 7 months ago | (#46991551)

Our leadership has no vision for anything more than lining their pockets. Long term success of the nation - nah.

Let the people learn to speak chinese ... or russian.

Soviet Russia (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991427)

In Soviet Russia, GPS operates you!

Throws like a girl (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991459)

This is what we get electing and re-electing a President so wimpy, he throws a baseball like a five-year-old girl. We've become like a 98-pound weakling at the beach. Every little bully in the world is now kicking sand in our face.
I can remember presidents back to Eisenhower, and I never remember this happening before.

That's what you get when you atrophy your industry (1)

lamer01 (1097759) | about 7 months ago | (#46991539)

Outsource everything, cut investments in high tech, cut investments in infrastructure and science.Spend more on giant military. That's what it gets us.

I'm confused (1)

jcopper (3651969) | about 7 months ago | (#46991559)

Space X lost in court but won anyways?

THE Ukraine , THE Canada , THE Japan ,THE Thailand (0)

Anonymous Coward | about 7 months ago | (#46991567)

wtf not because THE United States starts with a THE you got to add it on front of every country name.

About time (1)

asmkm22 (1902712) | about 7 months ago | (#46991577)

Ever since the Cold War ended, the US has really gone to shit.  It's like an old boxer who goes out of shape because there's no one left to fight.
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